EP11 - Advocating for Remote First working w/Alex Hernandez
Matt is speaking with Alex Hernandez, the co-founder of jobgether.com.
They touch upon a number of different subjects related to remote work, both on the candidate side and on the employer side. As well as a discussion around how to structure remote culture and the best ways to attract and retain top remote talent.
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Matt Hayman (00:00:16):
Hi, and welcome to Leading Remotely. I'm your host, Matt Hayman. Thanks as always for taking the time to listen to this show. In this episode I'm speaking with Alex Hernandez, the co-founder of jobgether.com, a site that helps you find the right job for your lifestyle. Whether you are fully remote, work from home, hybrid, or a digital nomad. Jobgether.com has over 2000 companies listing remote first jobs right now. I really enjoyed the conversation with Alex. We touch upon a number of different subjects related to remote work, both on the candidate side and on the employer side. We talk about how to structure remote culture and how to attract and retain top remote talent. Great episode. Love speaking with Alex. Let's get straight to the episode with Alex Hernandez from jobgether.com.
Alex Hernandez (00:01:08):
I'm really good. Thank you Matt, for having me today.
Matt Hayman (00:01:11):
I'm thrilled that you're on the show. We had a conversation a couple of weeks ago and I was really keen to get you on. I think there's a lot of insights that you bring to the discussion about remote work that I want to get into in a lot more detail. You're co-founder of jobgether.com. Why don't we start with a quick intro to you and also maybe a little bit of the back-story to what led you to set up Jobgether?
Alex Hernandez (00:01:31):
Yes, it's actually quite an interesting story, a funny story I'd say. I was working in recruitment for nine years between London and Paris, very traditional headhunting firm. Had enough of the job to quit one week before Covid, which I didn't know that Covid would happen obviously. During lockdown, I met, I mean, I got introduced with someone called Juan, who is an ex CFO for a big French group. So we met during lockdown, we clicked straight away. We had a very similar vision of basically how could we help people find a meaningful job and a job matching their lifestyle. �Cause I think Covid probably gave us one good thing only, which was, you know, people understood that work is not everything. Spending, you know, hours, you know, in a commute in the morning, working from an office that we don't really like, just to send emails doesn't really make sense anymore and people want a better work-life balance.
So yeah, so we met doing lockdown. Without actually really knowing each other or meeting each other, we decided to launch Jobgether. We had our first product for a year and I guess as, you know, like many start-ups we decided to pilot. And what happened is we could see that remote work and flexibility was getting more and more important in the current society and work was becoming more global. So what happened is back in February, 2022, we talked to more than a thousand job seekers, people from different backgrounds, people from different countries. We asked them a simple question which was, you know, you are now looking for a new job, what is your main criteria?
And 70% of the people replied flexibility. Most of them mentioned remote as you can imagine, but some people mentioned the four day week, unlimited holidays, flexible hours, people, yes, do want more flexibility. And then we realized that they were struggling to find a flexible job because the main traditional job boards, I'm not going to mention them, but we all know who, you know, who they are, are not made for remote work 'cause if you go to the main job board and you type sales full remote London, you will only see London based companies, which is fine. I mean, you can find a good job with a London based company, but if you are working fully remote, you maybe don't want to be limited to work for a London based company. You could potentially get a better job with an American company, a Singaporean company, Swedish company, whatever, right? So that's actually how we got the idea to launch Jobgether, which is a global job search engine dedicated to remote work.
Matt Hayman (00:04:18):
Brilliant. And the site is extremely comprehensive. There's a lot of content in there and I definitely recommend people to take a look. I want to just double click on this issue of flexibility because this is something that's come up time and time again on this podcast when I've spoken to people in different roles. And obviously, you know, there've been lots of studies. McKinsey put out a study a couple of months ago looking at flexibility. Why do you think there's been such a shift in the need amongst candidates for flexibility?
Alex Hernandez (00:04:45):
I think now that people want to have the choice to leave the way they want. For example, in my case, I live in London for 10 years. Every morning I was leaving my house at 6:15 for an hour 15 tube journey 'cause I had to start work at 8:00 o'clock. But at the time I never actually realized how crazy or stupid it was to just spend so much time on the pack tube in the morning to just sit, you know, in an office just to send emails because that was the only way, you know, we knew how to work. We just had no other options. Since Covid hit, of course we can't compare remote work to lockdown. That's two different situations, but still we realized that we could do, especially white collar position, we could do the job, you know, remotely. We didn't have to be in that office to be productive, to be good at a job.
And we also realize that, okay, I can stay home. I can spend more time with my kids. I can maybe go to the gym at lunchtime, I can take a bit of a bigger break. I can have a nap in the afternoon if I want to without me being, you know, worse on my job. And I think by finding what's right for you makes you a better employee at the end. Because before it was, you know, just one fits all. Everyone had to start at 8:00 or 9:00 o'clock, eight hours, you know, a day and that was it. But we're all different. For example, in my case, I'm not a morning person. I wake up at 8:00 o'clock, then I wake up my daughter, then I take her to school, we walk to school and yes, now for the last two years, I'm starting my day at 9:30 in the morning. If I didn't have that flexibility, that means I would just miss out on time spent with my daughter, for example. I don't want to lose that anymore. And yeah, so I think everyone found what really make them happy, which is different for everyone. So that's why people want to have the choice to choose what's best for them.
Matt Hayman (00:06:45):
Yeah, I agree. I think there's definitely been a cultural shift over the last five, 10 years towards a more sort of individual tailored experience in the world, be that the products that we buy, be that the experiences that we have online. And I think this is an extension of that. And as you say rightly, I think Covid accelerated that move towards, well how does that apply to my work? How can I customize my work setup so that it suits my needs, my individual needs more, whilst also the needs of the company. So yeah, really, really interesting. If we move away from the individual candidate and think more about the companies, obviously there are some companies which are slow to embrace remote work and others quite resistant to it. But from your perspective, what do you see as the key opportunities for companies given this merge towards remote working?
Alex Hernandez (00:07:27):
I think that opening your company to more flexibility to more remote is, first of all, it is not an easy change. And you know, yes, for people following me on LinkedIn, I always talk about remote work, but let's be clear, this is not easy. Even for me, for example, you know, I used to be a sales manager with people next to me. When you are becoming a sales manager with people all remote, it is difficult. So I'm not blaming companies not shifting from one day to another. However, I truly believe that being more flexible, we will help you with diversity, inclusivity. Because for example, you know, we talk a lot about working moms. At the end of the day, moms do spend more time with the kids than the dads. That is a fact. That's how it is. Allowing working moms to work remotely, they will spend more time with the kids without jeopardizing their career.
We are also talking remote work, helping disabled people to have access to jobs. You know, if you are in a wheelchair for example, you are struggling to take a train every morning or to get on a tube. Not all tubes in the world have, you know, step free access and lift and so on. If you are given the chance to work remotely, you can have access to these jobs. So I think yes, it is really helping companies, you know, with all that, and basically one thing that we could see, for example, in our website, we've only launched five month ago, we already reached a million visitors a month. So people looking for basically full remote jobs and not just tech people, which is, some companies think, oh, this is just for the tech people, this is not for the tech people only.
We have people from, you know, marketing, sales, operations, a lot of different roles and people just don't want to go back to the office every day or people don't want to be forced to go back to the office, even if it's like two days a week.
Again, I think a really good option is to really give people choice. For example, next week I'm going back to my parents. I'm going to be working a week from France. If I was working for a company with hybrid solution, two days per week in the office, I couldn't just leave Madrid and go home earlier and, you know, and spend time for my dad's birthday, for example. You can find a million, a million example like that.
Matt Hayman (00:09:49):
What about in terms of the talent pool, because I think one of the things that I see when I speak to remote leaders is that the shift towards remote working and more and sites like yours is opening up a global talent pool that maybe five years ago they would never have considered. Is that a big draw for companies as well, would you say?
Alex Hernandez (00:10:05):
Yes, a hundred percent. For the last 30, 40, 50 years, maybe even more, we used to hire people where the headquarter was. You were a Paris or a Madrid based company, you were just hiring people in Madrid or you were asking people to move to Madrid, which was maybe a city where you had no friends, maybe no family, but you had to go to Madrid to actually work for that company. It happened to me. I was working in London, I was working in Paris, which were city where I had just no friends, no family, but had to live there because that's where a company was based. And again, we are mostly talking for white collars positions. What you need really is a laptop and an internet connection. You don't need to have your people next to you to do the job. And what's allowing companies is basically to open up a lot of options where before you were limited to just one city. Now you can open up to maybe one country or maybe five countries or maybe a continent or even worldwide. There are some companies like us, for example, we are 33 people today, except for the sales team, where we want people in South Europe to meet more often. We just hire people from anywhere. Your talent pool is, can imagine going from one city to worldwide, you have a lot more opportunities. So yes, I think companies not allowing remote work will soon struggle to hire people. I think already the companies open to remote work, whether it's in one country or continent or even worldwide, they have it more easy.
Matt Hayman (00:11:45):
In your role, you are head of sales at Jobgether as well as co-founder. So you are presumably speaking to companies on a fairly regular basis who are looking to place listings on the site. What are some of the common questions that you are asked by those companies in relation to remote work?
Alex Hernandez (00:12:00):
Yeah, I talk to companies every day. So you have different sort of situations. You have the case, which is easier for us where the company already is global. The company already has hired people globally, they know how it works, they have the right tools for it and they're basically coming to us because they want to be more visible worldwide. That's really easy because in terms of compliance, contract, everything is already there. I would say these companies are a very tiny minority today. A lot, a lot of companies I'm talking to know that they have to become more flexible, usually want to become more flexible, but have different issues. They don't know how to do it. They don't know how to become more flexible. They don't know how to manage people globally. They don't know how to create a company culture with remote workers. So they just need help.
By the way, if you want to start a business of, you know, advisory of how to become more remote, I think you're going to have a lot of work. And the second thing is for me, I just talk to the company and I tell them, look, we can help you to hire people all over Europe, for example. The main question is, okay, but I only have a legal entity in Spain or the UK or Germany. How can I actually hire people outside Germany because I don't have a legal entity? So usually it's basically a lack of information from this company. They just don't know how to do it. We don't help people to hire, you know, employees outside the country, but other companies do. And some of them, you know, you've probably heard of EOR companies the ones of Oyster, Deal, WorkMotion, Lano, they're actually quite a few ones. So what we do, we just refer them to these partners of us and they just know that, okay, actually I don't need to have a legal entity in Romania for me to hire people in Romania. So I think, yeah, the main issue in a way that I see is basically the lack of information that today it's actually really easy to hire people globally. They just need to have that information.
Matt Hayman (00:14:11):
I know Oyster well. I use Oyster. I'm employed through Oyster, through an EOR. so I'm very familiar with them and the way that operates and it's from an employee's perspective, it's a very, very simple, easy and easy to understand experience. It's just getting your head around what an EOR, employer of record actually does. But those companies now are very, very good at onboarding their, you know, employers. So that's super helpful.
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So I want to just go deeper on this culture issue 'cause I think that's something that again is a common concern, a common issue? Do you have examples where you've seen companies really develop dynamic impressive remote cultures that you could share with us?
Alex Hernandez (00:15:31):
Yes, you can see Doist, you can see GitLab, you can see Panda, for example, these companies, they are fully remote company with a great company culture. Of course, creating a strong culture is not easy, but again, having an office won't make it easier. And what I hear a lot is, oh, but I need people next to me to have a strong culture because we are going to go for drinks, which I think is wrong. This is not as easy. And of course, I think creating a strong company culture remotely is a challenge. Is a challenge for us at Jobgether, is a challenge for I guess most companies because you don't know the people of them. I'm not an expert of company culture, but what I can say is first of all is hiring people for the right reasons and hiring people who truly believe in your mission, I think does help a lot with creating a strong culture, putting in place a feedback policy of where feedback is very strong and people are not scared of giving feedback and not feedback from the manager to the employee, also feedback from the employee to the manager, like a strong transparency culture and a feedback culture.
And also, don't get me wrong, remote companies doesn't mean you'd never meet your colleagues. Also, I think meeting your colleagues from time to time is also really important. For example, in our case, what we do, so we have 32 people in 15 countries from Australia, Thailand, India, Madagascar, Europe, Colombia. I mean, it's a bit of everywhere. We do once a year a global meet up where everyone meet and we would do twice a year local meet-ups; one in Europe, one in South America, one in Asia at the moment. We try to avoid the typical, you know, going to the Hilton Hotel and just listening to the slides all day. We try to avoid that but yeah, we try to do, you know, things a bit different and the concept that we are doing is what we call the open house. So we rent a house for a week and you actually come whenever you can.
For example, last time we did that for family reasons, I couldn't go there a week. I could only go four days, so I just went there four days. If you want to take, you know, your partner and your kids, you can if you want to. No one has taken the kids yet but if you want you have the option. And then what we do is we don't stop working for a week. Basically that week is a co-working week, is a co-living week. So we live together, we work together, of course we do take a bit more time off to actually have time together and do activities together, but we don't completely switch up, you know, the company. It is really nice and it is really a nice way to actually get to know your colleagues much better 'cause you spend quality time with them. And also I think it is important for some project because spending three hours together like three hours together on an important strategic topic, it is good sometime to actually spend time together. So yeah, I think it's this right balance that you have to find and especially be aware that, you know, just going for drinks every first evening doesn't make your company like a, you know, with a strong culture. I think we need to remove that from our minds and you can have a strong culture remotely.
Matt Hayman (00:19:03):
Excellent. I appreciate you sharing the way that you do remote at Jobgether, that it's interesting that I think everybody's in this position. We're all finding our way as we go or there isn't a playbook out there, although this is a useful opportunity to plug the remote leadership handbook that Wonder have produced but there isn't that playbook out there. And so I think we're all in this situation together trying to work out what effective remote culture actually looks like. Moving away from how you do it, I'd like to bring it back to the companies that you are working with. One of the things I've heard a couple of times on the podcast is people talk about how ineffective companies are at communicating what their remote culture actually is. When you are speaking to companies who are considering posting on jobgether.com, are you having conversations with them about how they articulate what remote culture means for their organization and what are those conversations like?
Alex Hernandez (00:19:54):
Yeah, it's a good point. I think remote work, even though more and more people are looking for remote work, I think you have two different situations. You have remote first companies, so companies with offices, but basically giving the choice to people to go or not go to the office. And you have fully remote companies with just no offices like us, for example. Fully remote companies, some people might not be keen to work fully remote without any offices because some people, and I can really understand that some people do have the need to go to an office one day a week and next week maybe zero and maybe the week after three days, especially maybe the youngest we've, you know, we just left uni with maybe a smaller flat maybe we've few network, they want to go to the office to actually start their career.
I think for this company, fully remote companies in order to attract people, I think really showing how great the culture is, is really important because yes, you will not see your colleagues every day or every week, but the culture basically will make up for it. One thing that we realized before launching actually, because we did talk to a lot of flexible companies and what was coming back a lot was we are flexible. We have a strong culture. It's really helping us to attract talents, retain talents, but no one knows. No one knows that we are very flexible. No one knows that we have a strong culture, so we just don't know where to display that. So this is also why we launched Jobgether. Part of the product is a company page where companies can actually show how flexible they are and they can talk about the culture and they can talk, you know, about the whole flexible policy.
One thing that I can see a lot is some of these companies, they have a head of remote. Not many companies have that, and I think it's a role that's going to become more and more popular and head of remote has a great role also to promote culture. What I see is normally these people, they go to podcasts, they go to webinars, they go to events and they publish a lot on social media to actually show people that yes, we are a fully remote company and we have a strong culture and we are actually going to show you what that means because it is still new. A fully remote company, even though some of them are remote for a few years, but really it really exploded like two years ago. For example, GitLab they have a lot of open source documentation on remote, for example, which is great. So yeah, I think being remote comes to a lot of more communication internally and externally and this is what we also trying to do to communicate a lot, to create a lot of content because they're just showing people that you can be a great company even though you are fully remote, you know. Even though Elon Musk doesn't believe that a lot more companies are moving towards more flexibility and it's really helping talents to find this work-life balance that we all.
Matt Hayman (00:23:02):
Yeah, and I'm reminded of the conversation I had with Chase Warrington at doist.com on the podcast, an excellent advocate for both remote work, but also as he speaks, you get a very strong sense from him of the quality of the culture, the remote first culture is considered and it's really effective and you get that. So I think that idea of a head of remote becoming almost like a remote culture advocate for the company is a really good point and definitely one that he embodies for sure.
So let's move away from the hiring side of things, towards the onboarding. One of the things I'm particularly interested to get your take on is the importance of onboarding remote talent because there is a risk at the extreme end here that somebody is hired into a remote role and is in effect left to themselves to try and work out the right way to navigate this culture. What are some of the tips that you've got either from your own experience at Jobgether or speaking with companies? What are some of the examples of good practice that you have in terms of onboarding new hires remotely?
Alex Hernandez (00:24:04):
Yeah, it's a really good point. Onboarding it is key and I think is usually underestimated by a lot of companies. So for example, in our case, for the first two years we used to onboard people fully remotely. If you do choose that option to onboard people remotely, you need to have an amazing documentation, an amazing process in place. You need to have someone following up that, you know, the onboarding is doing well and you need to have, you know, ideally maybe like a buddy to someone to just check that the person feels okay and you need to have a good communication tool because that person will have questions. In our case, for example, we are still trying things and one thing that we've decided is as of next year, so I mean in a few weeks now, doing all the onboardings physically. So on doing like batch of onboarding and onboard people together and for a week, meeting that person with at least one co-founder with the head of that person.
And if we can potentially colleagues of that person, because we, I mean we are still experimenting a few things and we want to try that because we believe that having a physical onboarding could help that person to really feel part of the company, not to miss anything and at the same time we can and we want to combine the onboarding with the meet up that I mentioned earlier. So that's something that we are trying and I really see the two options, some companies doing fully remote onboarding. We've, as I said earlier, great communication, great processes, great, you know, sorry documentation and companies doing physical onboarding.
Matt Hayman (00:25:59):
Fascinating insights and I really appreciate you sharing the way that you do things at Jobgether as well. It's super interesting. When we think about the candidates themselves, are there particular characteristics that you think make somebody particularly well suited to remote first work?
Alex Hernandez (00:26:14):
Yes. First of all, when you are a full remote company like us, you know that you may be missing out on some candidates who want to go to the office and that's fine and I think you just have to accept that. What I see by, you know, the sort of candidate that we receive usually, and it's a good thing in my opinion, they are people with very strong mindset in a way that they know what they want, they know what they're worth, they know where they want to go, they know what they want to learn, they know what they're going to bring. And that doesn't mean they are senior people or 45 years old people. You know, I've had chat with 25 years old people with that mentality of knowing why they want, why they need a remote job.
Matt Hayman (00:27:02):
Alex Hernandez (00:27:03):
Some people have site projects and for example, first we are actually fine with it. As soon as job is done, you can, and we actually encourage people to have site projects and the site project could be very different to what we do, for example. One thing and that's my opinion on that and my feedback on that. But yeah, I really see people with very strong drive, usually people who don't really know what they want don't apply for remote jobs, which is really good for us because this is the sort of people that we want and people really honest with where they want to be in two years, in five years, in 10 years. You know, for me, I'd rather have someone working with us for two years being amazing, that someone, you know, staying for 10 years without really knowing why he's here or she's here. So yeah, it is quite interesting. I never had that question before, but it is quite interesting to really, for me at least to see that very driven people applying to remote jobs.
Matt Hayman (00:28:01):
Yeah, I think it's an interesting subject. I think that really this is going to come to the fore in the next year or two really is really employers becoming a lot more attuned to what makes a good candidate at their organization beyond the culture of the organization. But the whole premise of working in a potentially isolated way. And I see a lot of what you've said in candidates that I've seen or colleagues that I've worked with, that sense of drive, that sense of motivation, being a self-starter, being somebody with a growth mindset, somebody eager to move in their own way, I think is, are all good characteristics that would lend somebody to be very effective remotely.
So last question from me then as we wrap things up, I ask this of all guests, I'm keen to get from you a couple of tools that you use in a remote role that you would be lost without. They could be software platforms, they could be physical items they could be anything really, but three things that you could not live without in a remote role.
Alex Hernandez (00:29:00):
We use Discord internally, which is yeah, really easy with different rooms and channels. I mean, I guess you all know what Discord is, a really good tool that we use. I mean, that's an easy one. But yeah, I would say my laptop, of course, you know, just the fact that having a laptop and not a physical, like a computer like I used to have in the office before, it was just a physical, you couldn't even change desk, you know, you had to unplug like five cables to change desk. Yeah, laptop really change everything. I take my laptop everywhere I go to do whatever you want. You can do everything actually with your laptop. So that's a second item I could mention. And the third one in terms, let me think, 'cause of course we use a lot of tools. I have to say Google Meets.
Matt Hayman (00:29:51):
Alex Hernandez (00:29:52):
First of all because that's the way I met Juan and that's how we started Jobgether and Google Meet today allows me to talk to people from anywhere in the world at any time and it's such a great tool. Yeah.
Matt Hayman (00:30:05):
Excellent, excellent. I'm going to ask one more follow on question that's related to your answer there around Discord and Google Meet. How do you internally within Jobgether, do asynch communication? Do you tend to be quite asynch focused or are you more real-time? What's the perspective there in terms of asynch versus real-time?
Alex Hernandez (00:30:24):
We are becoming so as asynch a lot, a lot, a lot. It is not easy at the beginning as I mentioned before, you know, because again, I used to be like a real-time in a way manager where people are asking question now and I was answering straight away. Because we have people in different continents, time zones, countries, cities, we have to be asynch. One thing I always tell, you know, people during Jobgether is you realize that when you have a question, first of all, 90% of the time you can find the answer yourself. Also, probably 99% of the time you think it's urgent, but it's never really urgent. So asking the question on Discord and having the answer an hour later or even the day after doesn't change that much. And of course if it's something like really, really urgent, they can always call me on WhatsApp and I know that's something urgent, but people, we don't do that. You know, it's always okay, I will send a message and the person will reply when they can. And I think it is something that probably changed my life the most not to have this always like stress in your head that, oh, someone ask me a question I need to answer now. And I think that's how I used to be and I think most people used to work like this. You have an email, you need to answer straightaway. And now my mindset is different that I will answer when I can and if it's in an hour, two hours, one day, and that's fine and it doesn't matter. And I think you take things with much more calm when you might send change and asynch work really helped me a lot with that.
Matt Hayman (00:32:02):
Yeah, I agree. It's culturally very difficult to move away from that innate need sometimes that we have to respond immediately in real time. But I think that's also where the culture comes in. That's also where, how senior leadership set the tone about what's expected about, you know, you don't have to respond immediately. And that's very much I think a culture that's driven by example, by the people who are running the organization. So yeah, excellent. Fascinating. I'm really, really yeah, really grateful for the time that you've taken to chat with me. I've really enjoyed this conversation Alex. So thank you. Before we go, as always, tell people a little bit more about Jobgether, how they can find out about you. I know you've got a considerable social following on LinkedIn. One of the things I saw when you and I first connected was how active you are on LinkedIn, but yeah, for people listening, how can they find out more about you in the work that you do?
Alex Hernandez (00:32:55):
Jobgether in one sentence, we basically helping talents to find a remote job matching the lifestyle. And the main difference to the most job boards is we are showing you job offers from companies able to hire you from the country that you live in. Whether you live in South America, you live in India, Australia, Europe, wherever, if you type sales Madrid, full remote, you will see people looking for salespeople able to hire you from Madrid, for example. So you have a lot more opportunities and yeah, you can follow me or connect with me on LinkedIn. This is really the only platform I'm using and yeah, I try to be active, yeah, as you said.
Matt Hayman (00:33:38):
Great. Well thank you so much for your time Alex. Really appreciate it. And as I say, really enjoyed the conversation. So yeah, thanks for your time.
Alex Hernandez (00:33:44):
Thank you Matt, for having me. Yeah, really great chat. I did enjoy it a lot.
Matt Hayman (00:33:48):
Excellent, thank you.
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