In this episode Matt is joined by Iwo Szapar to discuss how to make Remote work.
Iwo is a remote work advocate & Co-founder of Remote-how, the world’s leading platform for remote professionals. Iwo recently also established the Remote Work Institute whose mission is to create global standards in remote-first processes.
[+] The newly formed Remote Work Institute, its mission and its goals.
[+] Where Iwo sees the largest skills gaps among managers leading remote teams.
[+] The importance of clarity in communication when managing remote teams.
[+] How rituals can improve collaboration, along with two great suggestions you can try today.
[+] How Remote work is often viewed differently across an organisation, and how to improve that alignment.
[+] A deep dive on deep work and how it powers both Iwo's and my own productivity.
[+] The role of async communication in remote work
[+] The core pillars of an effective remote first strategy.
And finally - The one piece of software that Iwo couldn't live without.
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Welcome to leading remotely, helping remote first leaders navigate, survive, and thrive in this new world of work. Let's make remote work.
Matt Hayman (00:28):
Hi and welcome to leading remotely. I'm your host, Matt Hayman. And in this episode, I'm discussing how to make remote work with my guest Iwo Szapar. Iwo is a remote work advocate and co-founder of remote, how the world's leading platform for remote professionals. And more recently, the remote work Institute whose mission is to create global standards in remote first processes. Iwo cares deeply about the future of remote work. We pack a lot into this episode. We cover the newly formed remote work Institute and its mission and goals where Iwo sees the largest skills gap among managers, leading remote teams. The importance of clarity in communication when managing remote teams, how rituals can improve collaboration along with two great suggestions, you can try today how remote work is often viewed differently across an organization and how to improve that alignment. A deep dive on deep work and how it powers both Iwo's and my own productivity. The role of async communication, the core pillars of an effective remote first strategy. And finally, the one piece of software that Ewo couldn't live without. My thanks to Iwo for coming on and sharing his insights. Let's get straight to the interview. Iwo, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?
Iwo Szapar (01:48):
It's great to be here. Thank you so much. I'm good.
Matt Hayman (01:51):
Excellent, excellent. Really pleased you're on the podcast. I think people who have an interest in remote work will no doubt be aware of you and some of the work that you do, but for those of us who, who don't know who you are, could you just give us a little bit of an introduction to you and, and some of the work that you do?
Iwo Szapar (02:06):
Yes. Sure. Currently I'm a remote work advocate and the co founder at remote.how, where basically since 2018, we've helped. Oh my God. Right now over 2000 companies make remote work work either through consulting or virtual training we're basically providing competitive needs connection to experts. Who've been doing this for years and can help them hands on. I've been working remotely myself on and off for the last 11 years. And in 2017, we saw this shift that is starting to happen. So that was long before 2020 that employees are looking for more flexibility. It's also connected with the whole experience over possession. So it's no longer just about the salary and stuff that we can buy, but also about the time we can spend with our family or places we can visit et cetera. So that's how remote, how started. And recently, just like a month ago, we launched the not-for-profit initiative called remote first Institute where we are basically helping the world, the part of the work realize that the future belongs to remote and you need to embrace it. And the part that already is doing this to, to help them make it even better. So that's quite a lot of moving parts and, and the long history and more than happy to dive into this later as
Matt Hayman (03:33):
Well. And I suppose one of the questions with you having so many things on your plate, working remotely as well, how do you manage it? How do you manage running sort of two operations and, and, and everything that you do remotely, how does that work for you?
Iwo Szapar (03:45):
It's not easy <laugh> and there's definitely that actually the, the, probably the toughest moment was when I added writing a book on top of all of that, which was, that was the case I started to, to, to write it in 2019. So that was a real challenge as well, but overall couple of things that helped me a lot of async work. So we have partners, clients members of the team's spread across the world, and it will not be possible to keep a very synchronous way of working with a lot of internal meetings, ad hoc calls, et cetera. So we emphasize a lot on writing skills writing messages, writing memos, making the communication transparent, et cetera. For me personally, I have right now two full days during the week that I'm not taking any meetings. And on the remaining three days, there is only a three hours window where I, when I take meetings. So that also helps me to focus on on deep work. And yeah, probably I can talk four hours <laugh> on these small hacks. But those are the things looking at that at the big picture that personally helps me for
Matt Hayman (05:01):
Sure. And we're gonna come onto async communication a lot more in this episode. I'm sure when we think about the remote first Institute, thinking about the outcomes, what you're trying to achieve, what would success look like for the Institute for you in say one to two or three years time? What's the goal for you there?
Iwo Szapar (05:18):
This is a very good question because it's the beginning. And obviously we have this big mission to, to counter attack the, the global back to the office movement, or rather the, the movement that is pushing people to be in a certain place instead of giving them the choice, because for some people working from the office is great and it's amazing as long as they have a choice and, and everything internally is set up this way, that no matter where you are we care about the outcome and, and we care about you feeling good when you're working. Of course, there's like this big picture to help as many companies and many as many teams as possible to, to learn these best practices, because we, we engage with really not just top subject matter experts. I, I rather want to say that there are professional seasoned professionals.
Iwo Szapar (06:10):
Who've been doing this for your state. They've made a lot of mistakes in the past because this is a trial error, right? It was it's, it's a fairly new way of working if you look at this, but they know how to do is. And, and one of the goals here on, on the learning side is to, is to pass on this tactical knowledge and, and, and tactics, and then just in general to have less and less peo ple in the world that don't believe that that work can be done from, from anywhere. And we are going through this this humongous shift that is also helping people all over the world, create a more equal workplace and also provide opportunities to people and, and in unconscious, in places where without remote work, that would've been the case and they would need to move and not everyone can move et cetera. So there are a lot of moving parts. The common denominator is to help companies make remote work work in the, in the remote first way. Let's see how it goes. Let's catch up in a year and see where we are. Excellent.
Matt Hayman (07:08):
So that leads me nicely onto the next question then, in terms of the biggest skills gap right now, what do you see as the biggest skills gap among managers, leading remote teams, where are the biggest gaps in their skillsets from your perspective?
Iwo Szapar (07:23):
So there's a lot, unfortunately <laugh>, so there's a huge legacy from the past when companies been in investing billions of dollars in, in, in training, but because it was a low priority in most situations in generalizing, of course there was also, there was always an important deadline project to deliver et cetera. But right now this is the moment of truth. And a lot of the stuff that companies knew is a problem before everyone went remote right now, this is the time we're like, okay, we need to finally fix that. And these areas are for sure, micromanagement, that was one of the main arguments against remote work that people won't be working. If you cannot see them, they will be just watching Netflix or like playing PlayStation. Right. And the reason for that was that managers were afraid of losing control and that's because they don't trust their employees or, and they don't know how to manage them.
Iwo Szapar (08:24):
Well, right. So this is one huge area that impacts a lot of day to day business. Then the other one is communication and not just looking at the synchronous, asynchronous communication, but just in general, and then looking also at the empathy and just being able to communicate with the other human on, on a human level, and then adjusting this to the, to the workplace workplace reality on the communication. We have also the packet around like writing skills. When we see sometimes that the email change they're going on and that's our client's companies, or like how they build the communication, slack teams, whatever there's a lot of stuff that needs to be done on formulating thoughts, but also making sure that the message is well received. And people don't feel offended that there is like millions of of aspects here, the other areas around culture.
Iwo Szapar (09:22):
So unfortunately in the past, that was mainly HR that was organizing companywide initiatives that were making sure that the company exists, thrives, et cetera, right now with the current setup. And that was something, what we, what we've seen with remote companies before pandemic is that it's a lot about the manager that the leader and how they build these like mini elements of the, of the culture on a, on a day to day basis. And that basically means that you need to start investing time in this. You need to start building rituals around that. And many leaders are not used to that. They rather focus on tasks, projects, tasks, projects, goals, not all of them. Absolutely not, but this is this is a big gap that I see for sure. And maybe lastly, just in general planning work and, and being class ad hoc, I know that this is not possible for every work environment, but we need to work towards giving more freedom to our employees by setting them goals and, and supporting them rather than just like constantly jumping.
Matt Hayman (10:36):
I think that one of the things that I hear a lot is around that communication and misinterpreted communication. Can we just zoom in on that one a little bit? What tips, advice, suggestions would you give around that? Because I do think that's almost universal and probably also amplified when you're working cross-culturally around multiple continents. What advice would you give around that, that clarity of communication in particular?
Iwo Szapar (11:06):
Yes. So first of all, we need to make sure that we understand the culture that we work with. There are so many nuances and not everyone is the same, let's say in UK and the us you'll say something it'll be fine, but then you go to other country and then someone might feel offended or, or it might come across in a, in a weird way. So just simply invest time to understand that do we are reading, but also connect with your team and then simply ask them, right? Because this is honestly the best way to improve things by simply having a very open conversation. And fortunately, just in general, as humans, we have often hard time to to have this open conversation, but this is one of the fundamentals of how the communication is built and the, and the distributed team, just in general, in any team, how it should be, it should be transparent, transparent to the level of I don't know our listeners heard about the book, radical candor, but that's basically the, the Bible of of how managers should be giving feedback, getting feedback, having a hard conversations with their team, which means that we are polite.
Iwo Szapar (12:20):
We're nice, but we are saying out loud, the things that we see that we can improve, et cetera, I would really focus on culture where someone is from then being very transparent radical and being very open to feedback from your employees, because yes, there might be some things that you will learn yourself, but then after a month or two should be able to, to adjust. And that's basically another truth that we should keep in mind when, when it comes to introducing new habits, making the, the changes and, and how we work. There's nothing set in stone. You will always iterate. You'll always suggest. So this is a process.
Matt Hayman (13:05):
Excellent. Let me think about rituals. When you mention rituals there, I'd also wanna just double click on that a little bit as well. Can you give us any thoughts or insights around the rituals that, that improve that communication or that improve that collaboration amongst teams?
Iwo Szapar (13:18):
One super simple. My favorite one, it's called the daily check in and checkout, which basically is an asynchronous version of a standup. I will give you an example how it works for our team. So basically there is a specific channel where you're doing it daily, check in, you're writing a message, Hey, this is the stuff that I will be working on today. Right. and everyone does that creates immediately a ton of transparency on who is working on what and then it creates accountability because at the end of the day, you're doing a checkout where basically you're saying, I've done this, this, this and that. I haven't done this because ABC, so this is maybe already a red flag that I don't know, someone was interrupting you, you had the call that shouldn't happen or whatever. Right. So there's also a, an easy way to see some ways of, of improving the the workflow.
Iwo Szapar (14:10):
And then it really also helps to stick to your goals task from the beginning of the day, just as a self-motivation. Right. Lastly, what it also positively impacts is a work life balance, because the check in is when you're actually starting to work. And the checkout is really the moment when you're just saying, okay, I'm calling it a day. Right. I just last week ran a Serbian LinkedIn where I asked people, do you check emails, slack after 5:00 PM. And we had like over 700 responses and 57% people said yes, and 16% said, it's complicated. <Laugh> right. So we have 3%. Yes. So we have 73% of people that, that we, we can, we, we should, we should help them. Right. So coming back to this this ritual, it can be done on any type of communication platform you're using. The main thing is that it's a sync it's it's written down. You can link to these tasks in your project management tool or whatever you're whatever you're using and there's no need to do any company wide change management process. You can just implement this idea basically right off the bat.
Matt Hayman (15:34):
I really like that idea that resonates as somebody who is probably in the category of yes. To checking your emails after, after five o'clock <laugh>. I really like that because it's sort of it bookends the day. Doesn't it? It's the start, the finish. And it bookends the day really nicely. Have you seen teams? I mean, I know you, you probably mentioned it for your, for your own team. Have you seen other teams that have implemented that with success?
Iwo Szapar (15:54):
Oh, yes. A hundred percent. This is a big thing among the remote community for years. Some teams are using also video for that, like acing video. So you're recording like a shared video. If, for example, I don't know, you're designer or engineer, and you would like to showcase something that is also absolutely doable. So that's one of the rituals that we've been talking about for years, I'm expecting that a lot of companies are, are doing this right now, large and small.
Matt Hayman (16:30):
Hey, it's Matt again, do you lead remote teams, but struggle with spontaneous communication and collaboration? If so, I'd like to invite you to check out our platform, wonder.me a virtual workspace, where teams can connect, collaborate, and grow working side by side from anywhere for a limited time only podcast listeners can use the discount code, L R P 30 to get 30% off your first three month subscription or annual plan head over to wonder.me, start your free trial today and use the discount code. L R P 30 now back to the interview. Okay. So let's pivot and think a little bit more about different levels within an organization. So something that interests me in particular is how different levels within an organization think about remote work. And maybe it's generational to an extent, but, but let's think about it in terms of hierarchy, where do you think the biggest misalignment is between how senior executives and more junior staff think about remote work?
Iwo Szapar (17:38):
So senior staff is used to working the, in, in an old way that worked in the past, right? So why should we be changing stuff like it worked in the past, right? Of course there is a big misconception that it worked well. It just worked. And, and in many cases there, like the legacy was, was huge. Right? And then the other on, on the other side, you have a younger generation that aside from work related stuff, they have, I would say we have the different priorities in life, and it's not always work especially gen Z, which entered the, that the labor market recently this is basically the, the generation that work for them, just, yeah, like one of the elements of, of life, but definitely not the most important, like for previous generations. Right. so having said that there is like complete shift in how people view work and life, and then how they blend together.
Iwo Szapar (18:39):
Right. As compared to to older generations, this experiment of the last two years showed the executives that were totally against remote work that this could work, but it also showed them a lot of challenges that they need to overcome to make this work. They are afraid that they might fail, not just because of remote work, but because of many other things that they need to fix in order to be effective in this new environment. So in many situations, it's really about the mindset rather than the lack of skills, like outside skills that you can bring in and, and, and get your team or, or company up to speed. But because this there's no way of going back, honestly, when it comes to the, the old world Premar 2020 that the older generation needs to embrace it. And it's also not something that is against them, because if you, if you look at different studies that are looking at the people's age profession, it's actually people that are like 40 50 plus they love remote work because they hate to be stuck in the traffic.
Iwo Szapar (19:51):
They hate millions of things, right? So it's not just these young people that want to travel the world and whatever. No, it's like, they're just totally different motivations and different parts of your life. Right. and, and I had a very interesting conversation. I cannot disclose the name of the company, but multinational consulting company. It's funny because we've been talking with them pre pandemic and the biggest knows coming from from, from C-suite. And right now Csuite is totally sold on remote because they can be anywhere <laugh> and just work while they have challenges on, on other fronts. Right. So the, the, the perspective shift, and we, we need to, we need to adjust
Matt Hayman (20:36):
One of the things that you often hear from people around remote work, and we've sort of touched on it already is the challenge of time management. And we talked about the check in actually, I think is a great idea. Do you have, have any advice or tips on the sorts of routines or habits that leaders in particular should consider?
Iwo Szapar (20:53):
Yes. So two things one is to organize deport sessions which basically means that either you're meeting virtually with your team members, or you're doing this by yourself, you are starting the clock. And for the next 50 minutes, you're just working on some specific tasks that you share out loud with, with other members, or just with yourself, you write it down or, or get some tasks you're putting your phone away. You're just muting golden notifications. And it's just you 50 minutes. And those specific things that you would like to get done in, in this period of time. And then at the end, if it's a group you're sharing the results with others, I've done this, I've done that. I haven't done this because someone called me whatever. Right. But it, again, it's kind of like your daily checkin and, and, and checkouts like the whole eight hours and deep work gets working together, but separately on some specific stuff done to, to get some specific stuff done.
Iwo Szapar (21:49):
And the other one that is also interesting is called time budgeting, where basically you're using your calendar and, and you're putting some blocks for specific tasks projects, or any, any type of work that you'll be focusing on for the next hour. And this can be recurring, right. So I dunno if you like to reply to your emails every morning, just put it one hour every morning and no one will will invite you to a meeting at that time. Right. So really small things that can that can help you with a lot of noise distractions procrastination as well. When you're working remotely, the trickiest part is to build these rituals because this is something that needs to happen regularly. We as humans have always challenge to repeat and repeat. I'm also one of these <laugh>, so I'm working on it.
Matt Hayman (22:50):
<Laugh> I just wanna underscore deep work in particular, personally, it's been transformational for me and my productivity as I've gone fully remote. And I'm hoping that we will soon have a podcast episode dedicated specifically just to that subject. I think it is such a powerful concept that a lot of people are not particularly familiar with very simple in essence, but massively productive. Do, do you find that, is that something that you use personally?
Iwo Szapar (23:13):
Yes, absolutely. I'm a big fan. For many years. One thing that helped me personally is to have a good headset, being able to totally disconnect with everything that is happening around. I always work with music. So for me, it's it's, it's the same. So we just need to try if that would work for you. But if you look at the eight hours, then in theory, we work and then you look at really the time that you are producing stuff and producing stuff like more on the strategy level, not just replying to messages and, and like emails because that's shallow work which also needs to happen. But that the real one will is, is, is happening when, when it's a deep work. And I recently came across a study that show that you're not able to work more than three maximum four hours a day of like deep focus work. So let's advise our, our listeners to like try first one hour than maybe two hours and then have like different sessions. It's a game changer and it's so simple to, to implement. You don't need to wait for your HR department or like change management process. It's, it's just your choice.
Matt Hayman (24:30):
<Laugh>, it's all about organizing your time. It's a completely new paradigm. And it's about how you take those eight hours and what you do with those eight hours and way you think about those eight hours.
Iwo Szapar (24:39):
And it's really that you are becoming the manager of your time. It's, it's, it's no longer someone sitting in the office and, and looking at you or not. No, it's, you are managing this. And, and if you're not managing this well, a you can ask your, your supervisor to, to help you out, organize it. And if you don't do it, then you are encouraging them to micromanage you. Right.
Matt Hayman (25:04):
So a couple of times we've mentioned asynchronous communication, and I know this is something that you are a huge advocate of. Can you just give us in a sense, your kind of your take on AYQ, why it's so important and how it fits into the working week?
Iwo Szapar (25:18):
Yes. So async is super important because like there are many reasons, but let's start off with work life balance as something that we touched on earlier, right? So there's, there are specific times when you're working and when we should be replying to incoming information messages, and there is a time when we are not obligated to do so. And, and, and this is super important. Also mentioned here that the internal communication policy that the company should have in order to really understand and, and implement synchronous versus asynchronous communication, right? So this is, this is the first part that really helps with forklift balance, then the second piece. So for instance, you're not getting the message on slack at 9:30 PM when you're watching Netflix and you feel like, oh, I, I, I should reply. No, you shouldn't, in case you're working in different time zones, and this is your setup, right?
Iwo Szapar (26:12):
And then the second thing is, is to, to earlier point about writing, instead of calling it's about documenting how you're working, it's about documenting processes and, and, and progress. So acing encourages us to leave the history of work and the history of communication, if either yourself or a new hire that will be joining in six months would like to get back to check. What was the conversation about what was the outcome? Everything is in there, right? And that's actually helping companies create this knowledge repository, this brain of the company that oftentimes is just somewhere in emails and some random documents to really centralize everything. Right? Another aspect when we are encouraging people to, to write or, or like even record video messages, to think what they want to say, to think why they are saying this, to think if this is relevant, if if this is urgent or, or not.
Iwo Szapar (27:15):
Right. So instead of, oh, let's jump on a call and talk. You are really investing the time to think this through. And, and in many cases, what we, what we've seen in organizations is that once they start to change this, oh, let's hop on a call. It's dramatically impacts the number of meetings that they, that they have, and it dramatically improves the communication flow and, and the transparency and the equal access to to information within the company. Because lastly, what Aing helps you to achieve is the single source of truth that you're building within the company. And that's an ongoing process to have such place Aing supports that perfectly. And maybe lastly, it's obviously about time zones. So if you have team in, in, in different places in the world, this is the only way how you can make it work.
Matt Hayman (28:11):
So if we zoom out for a second, I'm really curious to know you've consulted with, for big multinationals, Microsoft, I N G Walmart. There's, there's lots of big names that you've consulted with. If we zoom out for a second, when you look at organizations like that, or even small organizations, what, from your perspective are the core pillars of an effective overall remote work strategy.
Iwo Szapar (28:35):
So I think there is one huge umbrella that we oftentimes call a playbook a handbook, something that specifies at the ways of working, which basically defines what is the expectation from the company, how the work should be organized, how the work is done, what are the processes also to improve it moving forward, who are the owners or of of different areas, because this is actually a huge topic when pandemic hit was mainly on HR was already overwhelmed with other aspects. So what we see among especially larger companies, some of them are hiring people responsible for for this transformation or for managing the remote operations, like head of remote head of hybrid. So this ownership is, is extremely important, but really having clear expectations and rules. This is the beginning. And oftentimes that requires company to taking remote stuff aside, just to really figure out how they work right now <laugh> because oftentimes it's just a chaos, then they need to define how it should look like, and then they need to define the process to, to arrive at, at this.
Iwo Szapar (30:04):
Right. So really it's so much just legacy of how you work and the place is just honestly, unrelated component. If you just look at the pieces of like, okay, so how the business is running, how we are doing this, right. And then just, okay, so people will be in different places and we will adjust the certain aspects to this, right. To have a culture in place, et cetera, and such. Right. So to summarize it, we always ask, and our experts ask if there are if there is a playbook, if a company defined these these rules, these rituals, these habits processes, if they did how they make sure that people follow through how they make sure that there is a feedback loop to improve this, et cetera, et cetera. And to my point earlier that there is an owner who who manages it because it touches on so many different areas, HR, operations, learning, and development, et cetera. So it's a, it's a, it's a very complex operation.
Matt Hayman (31:10):
So let's put on our futurists hat for a second. Let's imagine a world,
Iwo Szapar (31:16):
Matt Hayman (31:17):
A world five years from now, what does remote work look like five years from now? Do you think
Iwo Szapar (31:23):
It's normal? It's, it's like just how we work. There's no discussion if this is good or bad, or is this a future or, or a present of it's just a every day life.
Matt Hayman (31:36):
How do you see tech playing a role in
Iwo Szapar (31:38):
That a huge role, a huge role, like tech is an enabler that this is possible. I remember when I started to work remotely in 2011 Skype was the only way how we could communicate. And the connection was awful. Video calls were really hard to do so without tech, it wouldn't be possible. What tech is also doing is, is encouraging us to improve, make it more efficient. And eventually if one of our goals as a society is to work less and, and have time for other things like saving the planet from burning. Then the tech can, can simply help outsource some of the stuff and help us structure this better, help us better connect, help us create better rituals help us create better culture, et cetera. We have more and more amazing tools that that can help us execute that, that the right remote approach.
Matt Hayman (32:39):
So last question from me, then you've got one piece of kit and app something that relates to remote work that you could not do without. What would that be and why?
Iwo Szapar (32:50):
Oh, whoa. That's a good one. Notion mm-hmm <affirmative> yep. I became a huge fan of notion I think last year or even two years ago. Yeah. So that's, that's basically a brain that I'm not able to, to function without it's, it's our central repository of everything that is happening within within the company. You you've
Matt Hayman (33:11):
Gotta describe what is, tell, tell people a little bit I'm on the same page as you that I love, but those people have no idea what it is. You've just described it as a brain. I think we need to be a bit more let's let's decode.
Iwo Szapar (33:22):
Yes, that's true. That's true. So so notion is basically all in one workplace where you keep track of your projects when you are creating a knowledge repository that could be your CRM. It can be your internal repository of progress projects your team members. So it basically becomes a place where you run your company or on a more personal level. It can be a place where you take notes when you track your to-do list. It's, it's, there's like millions of things that, that you can do in, in notion. It, it can replace many apps that, that you're using can, can be the central place. And maybe one more would be an add to to Gmail that is snoozing your your email. So it's basically, it's not coming in every hour. There are like different types. So you can look which one would be, would be available for you from like privacy reasons, but you can basically snooze emails. So you're not getting notifications all the time. They're just kicking in in your inbox every hour or on specific times. So that's also a small productivity hack not to get emails all the time. Excellent. So you're improving <laugh>
Matt Hayman (34:48):
I, I knew of notion, but I, I haven't looked into the the pausing or the the sneezing of email. I like I'm gonna have, have a little look at that. Brilliant Iwo. Thank you so much for your time. I've really enjoyed it. I love how you think. I love how you talk about remote and your passion for the subject. So thank you so much as always, we always give this opportunity to guests, tell people where they can find out more about you, the work that you do and, and connect with you.
Iwo Szapar (35:12):
Yes, of course. So I'm more than happy to connect with everyone on LinkedIn. Just, just look for IPAR. We can also check my book remote work is the way, and if you have any questions follow ups after this after this conversation, I'm more than happy to help.
Matt Hayman (35:31):
Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time.
Iwo Szapar (35:33):
Thank you so much, Matt. It was great to be here.
Thanks for listening to leading remotely for show notes, resources, or to discover how you can make remote work for your team. Head over to wonder.me. That's wonder.me.